Important Discussion > Endgame DKP rules etc (Bladefist)

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Important Discussion > Endgame DKP rules etc (Bladefist)

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:38 am

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M.Steiner
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Please read this list of rules that would probably be used for endgame instances like MC/BWL/Onyxia etc with the DKP system in place. This is just an outline of the kind of system we plan to be using in the not so distant future. - I'm interested to know what GoE think about this as well as they will be using it with us. So please feel free to post guys. :)

DKP (Dragon Kill Point) System - The dkp system is basically a point system many guilds use for endgame instance as a type of currency for bidding on items that drop. Instead of like an auction house where you would bid gold, with the dkp system you bid with points you gain for taking part in the raids, arriving on time, killing bosses and finishing the raid.
  • Everyone will begin with 0 points of course.
  • For our first raid only we would most likely have to do random rolls for everything that drops as it will be a new start to the dkp system and nobody will have any points to bid with.
  • Basic outline on the amount of points that would be rewarded would be:
    -1 Point for attending the raid.
    -1 Point for arriving to the raid on time.
    -3 Points for a boss kill (+ more for some special kills)
    -1-3 Points for staying for the duration of the raid, an extra 2 points making it 3 if you also arrived on time.
  • Items will have a minimum cap on them which means you must bid at least the minimum on an item you need. eg. If an item has a minimum of 30 points you must bid at least 30 points or more. You couldn't bid any less than that.
  • Example of the amount of points needed to place a bid on certain items (remember this is an example):
    -Minimum of 15 points - boots, bracers & glove set pieces.
    -Minimum of 20 points - legs & shoulder set pieces.
    -Minimum of 25 points - chest set piece.
    -Minimum of 30 points - head set piece.
    -Obviously weapons and harder to aquire set pieces will have a higher cap on them requiring more dkp.
  • Items such as high slot bags / lockboxes etc will be given out with a /random 40 roll.
  • First bidder to win a main quest item he/she needs will be top priority for finishing it first.
  • The points you gain during a raid can only be used after the raid has ended and your total has been updated.
  • X amount of set moderators will be assigned the task of taking peoples bids during the raid.
  • Bids will be taken privately by the set moderators starting at the minimum cap for that item.
  • You may only bid on an item if you have enough dkp to spend.
  • You may not "borrow" or "buy" dkp from someone else, if you want more dkp to spend you know what to do. Participate more and you will get more points.
  • If you join the raid halfway through the run whilst the group is just about to kill a boss, you will not be allowed to bid on an item that boss drops if someone else that has been there the entire run needs it too.
  • If you bid on something and win it your dkp will be instantly reducted from your total.
  • Highly Preferrered that you do not use weapons that take up debuff slots with their procs, eg. Barman shanker, Skullforge reaver etc.
  • Master Loot will be on for bosses.
  • You must have CTRaidAssist installed.
  • You must use teamspeak, even if you do not have a mic you can listen.
  • If Possible: Peoples dkp will be automatically updated via a bot which will then automatically update to a website viewable by everyone. - Dunno if we can make this possible but it would be a great way of keeping track of everyones points and everything.
I'm pretty sure i've covered the general idea there and i've added a few new things in there too. Just remember this list isn't set in stone, thats the reason its being posted up for discussion.
So please discuss!. :)

When we have a final system worked out that the majority agree on i will add the rules to the SSX website for everyones viewing. :thumb:
Last edited by M.Steiner on Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:57 pm

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Anubis
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The idea itself is a good one. I support its use :thumb: However as I've just mentioned in IRC I have a few issues.

Firstly a question. What happens if you dont have enough dpk for something you need that drops, but no-one else on the run needs it?

Secondly, I'm against the following points being used in this system:
You must have CTRaidAssist installed.
]You must use teamspeak, even if you do not have a mic you can listen.
In regards to the first point, I dont think its fair to say that if you want loot you have to mod your game. I havent reinstalled Cosmos since I reinstalled the game to attempt to fix a bug and I dont plan to. I prefer my game unmodded.
I'm told that CTRaidAssist is a mod which lets you see everyone in the 40 manraid's health and mana, its a must for raids trust me, without it no-one would stay alive. That may be the case. However its mainly the healers who need to see everyone's health and mana. If you're tanking why would you need to see 39 other people's health? You'd only be concerned with your health, the boss' health, and at whom the boss' aggro is directed. I think its unfair to say that everyone has to have this mod installed when it may not help them at all. Let them choose.

In regards to the second, its really the same point. Let people choose whether or not to use TeamSpeak. Using TS when gaming simply irritates me, and I do it as little as possible. So because of this I shouldnt be allowed to take part in guild runs? Its unfair to say that, those people that prefer using the text Raid channel, like me, should be allowed to do so.

Aside from that, I approve :thumb:
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:37 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:In regards to the first point, I dont think its fair to say that if you want loot you have to mod your game. I havent reinstalled Cosmos since I reinstalled the game to attempt to fix a bug and I dont plan to. I prefer my game unmodded.
I'm told that CTRaidAssist is a mod which lets you see everyone in the 40 manraid's health and mana, its a must for raids trust me, without it no-one would stay alive. That may be the case. However its mainly the healers who need to see everyone's health and mana. If you're tanking why would you need to see 39 other people's health? You'd only be concerned with your health, the boss' health, and at whom the boss' aggro is directed. I think its unfair to say that everyone has to have this mod installed when it may not help them at all. Let them choose.
To Quote Ryoko from the other thread about CTRaidAssist. :)

If you don't have the mod installed, ct raid will route your data through somebody else's, which causes a slight delay in how your health updates on other peoples screens, even though this delay is milliseconds, it could make all the difference.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:17 pm

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lunarya
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Would we be awarding DKP for 10-15 man raids and such on scholo/strat/BRS like some guilds do? Personally I don't like that at all, but it needs to be considered. Also with Zul Gurub out next patch (20 man) this has to be taken into account as well.

A good idea as well would be to encourage our players to comple their MC/BWL attunement and Onyxia key quests by awarding small amounts of DKP. The sooner we're all up and ready, the sooner we can all start farming the phat lewts ;)

CTraid is to keep our healers happy..you dont have to have it display the raid info if you dont like it. You'd barely notice it.

Teamspeak makes it easier for the raid leaders to explain what to do..it takes much longer to type out all this details and strats , and you need to be able to respond fast in a tight situation. Its not too hard just to listen?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:27 pm

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M.Steiner
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I'd say this system should be used for everything above 15man.

Awarding points for completing your Key/portal quests is an interesting idea. Though if we did use that we'd have to give everyone points as it would be unfair to the people that have done those quests a long time ago i think. :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:46 am

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i dont have a problem with this at all, i think its an excellent system that if its used correctly will be a great way to distribute items among the guild and our friends ;)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:37 am

Roscoe
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Points for prequests

I think not. People who dont know what kind of stuff dropp from onyxia and those fellas in MC... plz check thottbot. Any sane person would have as nr 1 priority to attend in these guildraids. If folks arent interested in doing the prequest it must mean theyre not interested in participating in MC/Onyxia and we shall not force them :D However, we can all do our best to help group with guildies to do the prequests together.


Limit

Yes Id also say yes to implement this on 15+ raids since that seems to be the common idea. I would like it on 10 too but thats just my oppinion. Always try to have it as fair as possible. Maby we could have a poll about this? Where to draw the line 10, 15 or 20 ?


Minimum cap

Imho the suggested system su... isnt good :) Lets say Im the only one that need a drop... for everybody else its worth maximum a large brilliant shard. Why shouldnt I get it then. And if several ppl want the item but noone has enough points what happends? Dissroll? I think the best thing for the guild would be a capless bidding starting at 1. What would be the bad sides with that? Id like clearification on this part.


Lockboxes

I have a suggestion on this part. One of us rogues (decided before we start) gets all lockboxes, picks them open and then links whats inside and we do with this loot, as with bossdropps? (or the raidleader picks them up and we rogues just lockpick for them) What good would it be for me to win a box containing a epic bop platehelmet? None! Id rather like that someone who needed it could bid on it with DKP. It would imho be in the best interest for the guild.


And Id just like some clearification on this part: "First bidder to win a main quest item he/she needs will be top priority for finishing it first." My english isnt perfe... hell my english sucks so what exactly do you mean with this? I simply dont understand :/


All other parts are super and I agree on it all! Good job making this list folks!
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Chizelle - Alchemy 300, Enchanting ~250 Lockpicking 300

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:43 am

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Roscoe wrote:"First bidder to win a main quest item he/she needs will be top priority for finishing it first." My english isnt perfe... hell my english sucks so what exactly do you mean with this?
Exactly what it says.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:46 am

Roscoe
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Ok. But I dont understand. I wish to uderstand. Is it possible to refraze it so I do? Or must I take another english class or simply live in ignorance?
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Chizelle - Alchemy 300, Enchanting ~250 Lockpicking 300

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:03 am

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Sofia
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chiz,
there are some drops in MC that will start a quest for you... they are very rare & need more parts than 1 to be completed... so whoever wins the first part has top priority to get the part to complete the quest... & its followups until he can open the gate to south silithus for instance ^^

about the rules,
i absolutely agree with them, gj guys!

what i cant see happening at all is to mix dkps gained in 10/15/20ppl raid, whatever, with dkps from 40ppl raids... IF we choose to implement it anyway... imagine someone could run UBRS till he finally got his set chestpice & then bid with those points in MC... that would be ridiculous!

wouldnt be fair at all... a dkp system for our weekly raids however would be a fair solution to finally make an end to all the frustration of n/g rolls where ppl call n for some weird reason above someone who really needs it!... the question is: does the huge effort justify the fair distribution of the nonepic drops?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:32 am

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15 person raids wont be counted for DKP however I will suggest we leave it open with 20 person raids: As Zul'Gurub is slated to open next patch which is supposed to be a "leet" 20 person out door raid instance.


~ To the question of bidding on items that no one else wants and you don't have minimum points.

It's simple.

-> Negative points are not an invalid value, however are only allowed in circumstances like that.

Keep asking questions peeps, keep giving feedback ;)

As for CT Raid there are several other reasons to have it (/rs gives messages to everyone on their _SCREEN_ and announces it with a _SOUND_ therefore should not be ignored as easily *COUGH* Certain people).
I don't care if you're a tank or a rogue you get this addon, it's simply impracticle to report via proxi in molten core.

Tanks do not need HP Panes open, however.
(Mages will do since they will spend some time decursing people).

Edit: The minimum cap is not there to punish people who do not have the points, but there to insure that people who want an item are going to spend points for it, and not walk away with it for free when people who may not have attended the raid would happily bid for it.[/b]
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:15 pm

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Thank you for clearing that out for me Sofia. Now I understand and agree totally with that rule.

About the cap

Well the dude who isnt in the run simply cant have it right? So the only person wh can get it is the one inside. Thus that item only has the capvalue of those who need it. It will encourage ppl to participate and would be a good thing for the guild.

What if we allow -Dkp. How much - can I have? When do I have to return the dkp?

I understand some would see it as frustrating, if lets say a bloodfang setitem dropps and Im the only rogue there. I bid 1 point and get it. Later on when Hellmasker is doing the instance that item dropps again but then there are 6 other rogues who want it and it would end up costing a lot of points. Sure this isnt fair. But seriously. There will never be only 1 player who needs something. Oh there will when everybody else has got theirs, but isnt it only fair that the one whos been waiting longest gets it for the lowest ammount of dkp? I think it is and if I cant play one night and Hellmasker i.e. get that bloodfangitem for low points Ill be happy for him because hes a guildmate! Everybody can always play. Its a question of how high one prioritizes these raids.

If you MUST have a cap, please let it be lower. This system shouldnt end up exhausting players.

Any comments on the lockboxidea?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:23 pm

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The minimum cap points are probably something we're gonna have to give a lot more thought into on how many points certain items should have a value of but there will have to be a minimum cap, but just for the record, those estimated points are actually a LOT lower than some guilds have been using.

eg. Nightslayer chest would have a value of 75 with another guilds dkp system. Which does seem high, but it rewards the people that put a lot of effort in. =)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:29 pm

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Then maby the caps should be relative to how many times our guild does the instance. Low at first and then higher?
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Chizelle - Alchemy 300, Enchanting ~250 Lockpicking 300

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:35 pm

Nightstone
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Heya guys,

I fully agree with this topic and the system. imo its the best one can get. I will get TS installed and hope ill understand all youre saying and get it right........so i will be off some help in the instances. :smack: Curious how you guys sound :D

Well, lets hope we all benifit from the system and make nice runs at the end instances... cant wait tbh.

Cya all,

Nightstone
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Never a dull day :D

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:40 pm

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Roscoe wrote:Then maby the caps should be relative to how many times our guild does the instance. Low at first and then higher?
Only problem with lowering the cap at the start would be that if lets say, someone bid on a chest piece for 30 points and won it, and then we later increased that same cap to 50, its not very fair on the people bidding after that. The caps would have to stay the same throughout.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:55 pm

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Roscoe wrote:Thank you for clearing that out for me Sofia. Now I understand and agree totally with that rule.

About the cap

Well the dude who isnt in the run simply cant have it right? So the only person wh can get it is the one inside. Thus that item only has the capvalue of those who need it. It will encourage ppl to participate and would be a good thing for the guild.

What if we allow -Dkp. How much - can I have? When do I have to return the dkp?

I understand some would see it as frustrating, if lets say a bloodfang setitem dropps and Im the only rogue there. I bid 1 point and get it. Later on when Hellmasker is doing the instance that item dropps again but then there are 6 other rogues who want it and it would end up costing a lot of points. Sure this isnt fair. But seriously. There will never be only 1 player who needs something. Oh there will when everybody else has got theirs, but isnt it only fair that the one whos been waiting longest gets it for the lowest ammount of dkp? I think it is and if I cant play one night and Hellmasker i.e. get that bloodfangitem for low points Ill be happy for him because hes a guildmate! Everybody can always play. Its a question of how high one prioritizes these raids.

If you MUST have a cap, please let it be lower. This system shouldnt end up exhausting players.

Any comments on the lockboxidea?
The very point of the minimum cap is to exaughst players.

It is the very balance on point inflation in the system ~ A sliding scale maybe thought about, however, looking at things...


A) People want to have items when they cannot spare as much time as others. -> They are going to be at a large disadvantage and shrewd bidding can always easily lead to them being left with nothing.
B) Power Gamers are always going to have plenty of points because they will be there for every run.
C) Power Gamers are going to have a lot of points in comparison to new comers, new comers are never going to have the chance to bid for items for weeks/months if a minimum cap is NOT observed without a 'rezeroing' system (Which I personally hate to all hell since it resets everyones points on a time basis, it's horribly unfair because it's not proportionate either).
D) Most other systems used are skewed towards an "Officers first"Mentality, however the addition of a minimum cap means everyone has to pay a certain amount for these items.

Exclusions are:
-No one of the class needs it, however it is a decent item (BoP Non-Set Epic, leather with +Int+Sta+Healing+Mana regen for example, the druids don't need it but a Paladin will happily use an item like that for healing duty (EG: MC)) and another class will accept it as a place holder for their coming kit.
-Everyone has the item and a new comer/person with not enough points needs it.

There are more I suspect but I can't think of them at the moment.


Again: Minimum bids are a Balance system.
It may SEEM our points are low in comparison to other guilds however, when we get going you will quickly find the guild becoming capable of gaining 20 points in one nights work, or more.

The basic extent on -points is situational.

There is obviously only one reason a person CAN go into -points if that negative stays, that's fine.
-> Why?
Well, if there ARE People present who want to bid on an item that you want / is of your set -> You will not have the points to spend on it.

-> Negative points are dangerous things to those who go into the negative and a person will be given a choice as to whether they want it or not for the negative.

However should the same situation happen again later: The same answer.
-> The person goes deeper into minus points SHOULD they so choose.

The thing is, if they ever want to bid on items later on in the runs they are going to have to earn those points back and more to do so.
Therefore negative points is not unbalanced, it simply prevents the creation of grudge bearing Large Brilliant Shards.

You will NOT be walking away with an item for 1 point just because you are the only person who bids on it, that allows far too much 'I wont bid on this if you don't bid on that'. -> Minimum cap again, is for the newbies and casual gamers benefit, not the power gamers.
This cap will probably limit ME more than anyone else in the entire Guild so if anyone had a right to complain about it don't you think it'd be me?

All of the restrictions on the people who are the most extreme at this will probably effect me most simply because ATM I don't think there's anyone who puts in as many hours as I do.
So please, understand.

Lock boxes:
Unless Blizzard change the lockbox system from now until such time where as we are doing MC, Lockboxes will not contain something useful to a person who is valid for the dungeon.
The highest lockbox in the game is the only one that drops in MC -> This will typically contain a lesser-than-blue piece green item that sells to a vendor for about 2g.
Eternium Lock Boxes have been known to contain 16 slot bags however if you look at it: The raid leader already did a random 40 to determine who was going to get that 16 slotter.

Baring new information about Zul'Gurub I may not include it in the DKP system...
It's supposedly going to be blue items mostly with a few purples the same sort of scale as UBRS.
-> We'll need to run through it once or twice first, to find out.

Again: Sliding minimum caps may be looked at, as this system as it stands has no 'upper cap'.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:14 pm

Roscoe
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Well said QD. Now I agree with this cap issue. You are absolutley right. :)

But I dont see any harm in dealing with lockboxloot as ordinary drops. Rare items has often been found in boxes. But either way this isnt a very big issue. Ill go with either on this point. It was only a suggestiong and I think its a good one.
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Chizelle - Alchemy 300, Enchanting ~250 Lockpicking 300

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:31 pm

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Roscoe wrote:Well said QD. Now I agree with this cap issue. You are absolutley right. :)

But I dont see any harm in dealing with lockboxloot as ordinary drops. Rare items has often been found in boxes. But either way this isnt a very big issue. Ill go with either on this point. It was only a suggestiong and I think its a good one.
I'll pay more attention to lockbox loot for a while and note if there's anything worth changing the guidance for ;s
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:38 pm

Nightstone
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Hi guys,

Just a little question.. who is taking note of the points of everyone.... Are we going to publish those on our site and how can we watch the points during the raid??? for bidding etc. Just wondering how we keep track with it. I guess it will take some time to check the points of a raid member to see if he has enough to bid on an item.

Since i havent been there can you plz explain how that works. The rulez are very clear to me, but i cant see atm how it goes during gameplay.

Maybe QD can enlighten me on that??? plz do.....

Thx in advance for it.

Grtz,

Nightstone
Live Life to the fullest
Never a dull day :D

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:50 pm

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QuantumDelta
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If we get a bot -> we will be able to /w the bot owner and get their points that way (auto reply).

-> If we don't have the bot, it will have to be done via alt-tab to a site.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:51 pm

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M.Steiner
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Nightstone wrote:Just a little question.. who is taking note of the points of everyone.... Are we going to publish those on our site and how can we watch the points during the raid??? for bidding etc.
We are hoping to get a bot to use during the raids which will automatically update peoples points and then update to our website for viewing. - As i said above i'm not sure if this will be possible just yet but if we can get something like this working it would be perfect.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:03 pm

Nightstone
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Thx for the quick answer guys (:D and the enlightment :D).

Well, this whole discussion makes me even more curious about the instances.

Gl figuring all things out with that bot, ohterwise it will take quite some time i guess.

Gj

Grtz,

Nightstone
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Never a dull day :D

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:32 pm

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keep in mind that i have two computers sitting next to each other .. actually i have 4, but thats another story.

It would be quite easy for me to keep an eye on points during a raid.
Ryoko/Deluxe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:41 pm

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Sounds to be a good system and all, but I have the problem that I don't have a PC and therefore no teamspeak or vent. What can I do?
I loot Legendaries.

http://ctprofiles.net/1752

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