*Sofias thoughts about rogues*

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*Sofias thoughts about rogues*

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:58 pm

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Sofia
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After respeccing so many times that i stopped counting & after I experienced each rogue skill & talent out there first hand, I thought it might be time to share my thoughts. Well, Sofia was a backstabber most of her wow-life, but recently after getting the hands on a dual dalrends set I decided to respecc to a build that doesnt rely on heavy hitting backstabs. Some of the best rogues out there are my friends or ppl I know quite well & I also know their builds as well as my own. With some i discussed pros & cons for hours & I love every one of them so if you catch up with Mystiq, Kabus, Rougue, Kylie, Nana, Walter or Jinx give them a /hug from me ;)

About the builds: always keep in mind where your dps comes from & how you generate combopoints so far for a base rule.

Now to the interesting part: the talent builds
Last edited by Sofia on Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:59 pm

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Sofia
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1. Seal Fate Backstabber

Assassination Talents (30 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.
Improved Expose Armor - 2/3 points
Increases the armor reduced by your Expose Armor ability by 30%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Improved Kidney Shot - 3/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Kidney Shot ability by 5 seconds.
Seal Fate - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from abilities that add combo points have a 100% chance to add an additional combo point.



Combat Talents (8 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.



Subtlety Talents (13 points)
Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.

One of the most lethal specs out there for raw dps you kill fast! Seal fate is the key talent since backstab is your mainattack & crits more often than not along with the crit comes maybe - the best combopint generator, but since a backstab needs 60 energy to be performed you will need the additional point from seal fate badly to keep up with the cp-generation of other builds. However, you have to give up some talents to justify the crazy dmg output: no preparation means you will do your cooldown abilities less often (including cold blood) & the loss of imp sap hurts for the usual instanceruns badly.

Variations: the 2 pts in imp expose armor are completely variable, I displayed ros fondness of tearing platewearers apart in duels, however its a bad idea to expose in instanceruns because the maintank cant sounder the mob & will loose one of his best aggro generating moves. You can put the 2 points either in your poisons or even imp slice & dice. Another variation is Mystiqs build to skip one point in imp ambush for vigor, the top tier talent of assasination which adds 10 energy to your bar. The thought behind this is to get a full nightslayer set & get another 10 energy with 120 total energy you can frontload a world of pain ;) as a sidenote, with vigor you always seem to have energy for a kick & thats great indeed if you need to stop a spell asap.

Conclusion: best build for pure dps at the cost of some precious skills & belive me, this build really kicks in when you have a tank who knows how to hold aggro

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:01 pm

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Sofia
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2.Preparation Backstabber

Assassination Talents (21 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.
Improved Instant Poison - 1/5 point
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 2%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.



Combat Talents (8 points)
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
Improved Backstab - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Backstab ability by 30%.



Subtlety Talents (22 points)
Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)
Opportunity - 5/5 points
Increases the damage dealt when striking from behind with your Backstab, Garrote, or Ambush abilities by 20%.
Improved Ambush - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 40%.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.

If you like to use vanish, blind, evasion & cold blood a lot, preparation is indispenseable. Like me, I am so used to my cooldown abilities that its hard to imagine not to have prep.The upside of this build is, that your cooldown abilities can save your live. Someone said: seal fate helps you to kill something faster you would have killed anyway, prep on the other hand can turn a loosing fight into a winning one. Its nice to vanish when you draw aggro from the tank & return asap with a cheapshot or a critting ambush. Or to build up 5 pts & coldblood eviscerate, then build up, hit prep & do it again. I just <3 vanish, blind & coldblood. However, the downside of this build is that you only rely on initiative for combopoint generation which isnt really great tbh - & as soon as you drop out of stealth you probably build up points at the slowest rate of all builds. Thus you have to take your time untill you can do that second coldblood evi you got through prep again, until you dont vanish & get off another opener on the mob.

Variations: In the assasination tree is still 1 point that can be distributed free between poisons, imp expose armor & slice & dice, whatever you feel will benefit you most. If you go daggers pls go for ambush as well. It may not be very useful in usual pvp (cheapshot & backstab is still better & you may get it off versus a mage who has not his finger on blink all the time & you need the generated combopoints from chapshot with this build), but there are quite a few mobs out there (especially bossmobs) that are immune to stun & dots. With ambush you can hit them hard like hell. No matter how useful imp sap may be, someone may prefer to take imp rupture instead. The reason is simple, with 3 points in imp rupture you hold the best dot ingame in your hands which even outdamages sw:p (imp rupture = 110dmg every 2 sec vs. sw:p 148dmg every 3 sec). Either in pvp against platewearers or when you are fighting hard armored mobs like the orcs in UBRS dots rule imo, simply because they ignore armor & will do even more dmg over time than your 5pt cb evi.

Conclusion: Since you create combopoints only very slow you have less dmg output than the seal fate build, however you are far more versatile in any situation with your cooldown spells. Seal fate is considered to more pve & preparation may be more pvp oriented, but its a matter of taste tbh.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:03 pm

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Sofia
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3. Sofias current build: even if it seems to be kinda odd

Assassination Talents (23 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Improved Slice and Dice - 3/3 points
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 45%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.



Combat Talents (2 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.



Subtlety Talents (26 points)
Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)
Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.
Elusiveness - 1/5 point
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 15 seconds.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Improved Rupture - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.
Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 20.
Hemorrhage - 1/1 point
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hermorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

As you can see I gave up backstab & ambush. With this build you can use basically any weapon as long as you got a slow mainhand for the base dmg with hemmo/ss. First of all I consider this build to be more grp friendly as you spec in many talents that support rather than do raw dmg, & thats exactly the point: you will lack in burst dps that you can frontload, but the skills make up for it imo. In the contratry to the backstabber builds your dmg comes from your finishers, not heavy critting backstabs. My base attack is hemmo all the time, it may not do as much dmg as ss or (god forbid) backstab, but hemmo isnt meant to kill, your finishers will ;) Hemmorhage is what I would consider the best combopoint generator, even faster than seal fate, especially with initiative! Upside of this build is, that you get the best skills from the subtlety tree like MoD & camo, imp sap & rupture, & last but not least imp cheapshot which makes your combo point generation even faster when you do the opener you will do 90% of the time anyway. Now that you are spamming finishers in a high rate your Ruthlessness & Relentless strike can kick in to its highest use & you can decide which finisher is most appropriate for your current target ( dont wait always for 5 pts btw, a 2/3 point rupture or slice & dice or kidney may be as good as well & last until the mob is dead anyway). However, the downside is still the lack of burst dps you struggle to be at the top in the dmg done mod, but its doable - & what buggs me most of this build is the lack of an opener when the target is immune to stuns well you can do a garrote, but without the 20% added dmg from opportunity (garrote sucks anyway) so it might be best in certain situations to just walk up & hemmo away.

Variations: there are some points you can move around as you like, basically the 3 pts in imp slice & dice & the 2pts in imp ss. I respecced again to get this abilities only for MC, since hemmo & rupture will use a precious debuff slot & the 40 man raid will kill you if you keep kicking better debuffs off the bar, its a better advice to just spam ss & slice & dice or cb evi. However, this 5 points can go anywhere: imp kidney if you <3 to stun a lot, imp gouge if you <3 to have a tick more energy before the stun ends (but you dont need it like a backstabber). I had my 5 pts first in elusiveness, because I thought the low cooldown + prep would rock in Battlegrounds to do your cooldown abilities even more often. Anything goes ;)

Conclusion: you are more a support rogue than a pure dmg monster, but your skills make up for it & in the long run you can dish out the hard hits as well, just not in a burst mannor. Thats why I consider this build to be more pve oriented, but nontheless you can kick some asses when you cs, hemmo 2 times & cb evi even before the stun runs out.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:04 pm

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Sofia
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Remember: at the end of the day its only a matter of taste & smart thoughts first hand experience is great to decide which talent fits your playstyle & if its even worth spending points in it. Feel free to walk new paths

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:19 pm

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Sofia
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you may notice how skillfully i avoid the combat tree;) well rush is great, but not worth on a 6min. timer, despite the top tier talent there isnt much to get from combat what i would consider something a rogue should do/need anyway... not that i didnt tried the talents, but combat just sucks imo & made me respec faster than anything else.

thanks

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:40 pm

sakuragi
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that's interesting..thanks for the info...i don't know what my rogue is going to be at the end yet...i'll let u know when i do get to lvl 60...

:)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:03 pm

Scorpius
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H'mmm I might use the backstab build there on my Undead Rogue on Sunstrider........ :)
Nice posts well thought out, have a cookie on me with warm milk too..... :D
Power Corrupts, Ultimate Power is Fun.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:09 am

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M.Steiner
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We seem to be using very similar builds atm. :)

-Here's my current one [Edit - Link updated]

As soon as ive made some more cash i'm gonna respec slightly, i wanna give Hemorrhage a try, i've not used it before. I may tweak or get rid of my imp gouge to free up those couple of points as i don't often use it much tbh. Not enough for me to spec 3 points in it anyway.
Think its gonna cost me 10 or 15g to respec this time, i've only got 13g atm, kinda broke after spending 800g the other day lol. :sweat:

Welcome to the forums btw :thumb:
Last edited by M.Steiner on Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:44 pm

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Sofia
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10 or 15g to respec... *HM rides away on his epic cat - Sofia opens her purse & a moth flies out*

yeah HM, our buids are pretty close... only thing i was wondering: you use the shanker (best - nonepic - backstab weapon). maybe im wrong, but a slow 1h with a good base dmg for ss/hemmo would help your dmg in the long run, since a backstab only is worth the 60energy if it crits (with all backstab talents you crit more often than not - around 800-1000, without around 200-300)... just a thought

PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:13 pm

sakuragi
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Hey SSX-MS,
I can't see ur built, can i get added to the forum members list?
Thanks,

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:12 am

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M.Steiner
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I've slightly changed my build since the one that i posted, you can view my current one by clicking the top link in my sig though. Clicky here.

You'll be on the forum members list within the next 24hrs too btw. :thumb:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:20 pm

sakuragi
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coo thanks...

:)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:27 pm

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Padishar
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Nice breakdown, perhaps this should be moved to the Tradecraft Forum?
Last edited by Padishar on Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:10 am

Oranj
settled on 31/7/13. vigor does help in raids and i took ambush 45% over bs 30%. got instant poisons at 26% also.

seal fate = :thumb:

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:43 pm

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Sofia
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4. Raidbased PvE Combat Build:

Assassination Talents (20 points)
Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Improved Slice and Dice - 3/3 points
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 45%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 30%.


Combat Talents (31 points)
Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.
Improved Gouge - 3/3 points
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.
Precision - 5/5 points
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%.
Deflection - 5/5 points
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.
Riposte - 1/1 point
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.
Dual Wield Specialization - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.
Sword Specialization - 5/5 points
Gives you a 6% chance to ge an extra attack on the same target after dealing damage with your Sword.
Blade Flurry - 1/1 point
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds.
Aggression - 3/3 points
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.
Adrenaline Rush - 1/1 point
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.

I tried this build in the weekends MC runs to test its dmg output. First of all: it only works with 2 swords in your main / offhand, & you will deal crazy dps! Try to keep up Slice n Dice all the fight & throw in the Blade Flurry when it is up to add another 20% attspeed. 2 slow weapons + slice n dice + blade flurry + imp sword procs + added dmg from your offhand & aggression on your special attacks = lethal! Once i used Adrenaline Rush when we fought 2 Molten Giants & the dmg meter recorded close to 400dps. Respect to Ava & Arche who could hold the giants even without too much feint spamming from my side. As the nature of a 40ppl raid is with long buff / bless times & downtimes (depending on how well the raid works) you will find yourself more often than not with blade flurrys cooldown up in nearly every fight & even adrenaline rush up for every fight where it is worth using. However, i feel gimped outside MC... i can do nothing, hence my upcoming respec & another 100g down the drain. Forget about pvp, BGs & certainly forget about relying on your stealth... it just wont happen.

Variations: As i said its a RAID PvE only build, so i would put the 3 points in imp gouge certainly in lightning reflexes if i specced it again. Not much possible variation else tbh, because the build is centered around a specific purpose as it is.

Conclusion: BEST build for MAX DMG in 40ppl RAIDS (if you are using swords). You will top the dmg done in your sleep, blind & one hand bound to your back. But dont even think about anything else, because you wont be near any player in PvP long enough to utilize your constant crazy dmg output... what maters in PvP is burst dmg, nothing else. You will miss imp sap for 5 man instances & i certainly miss my stealth! Hordes & Mobs see you from miles away, i cant even farm certain places anymore. Gimp!

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:31 pm

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QuantumDelta
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it might be worth to note that things like sap and other typically roguey abilities used in 'normal' instances....are actually somewhat useful in BWL's first fight.
Second fight is weird though.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:14 am

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M.Steiner
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hmm interesting.

I'd prolly try it out if it wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg to respec and then respec back if i didn't like it. :/
It would be nice to be doing a little more dps, i don't pvp much so that side of it wouldn't really bother me, but i rely on my stealth and imp sap quite a bit. hmm, feck it. I'm gonna give this a try if/when i can offord it.
hence my upcoming respec & another 100g down the drain.
:sweat: :(
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:05 am

xlan
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nerf rogues!

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:18 pm

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lunarya
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Im my attempt to keep rogue life interesting, i also just had my weekly fix of a respec :)

Back to sealfate(ftw)..Its by far the most 'satisfying' build to play in pvp. The constant first damage without relying on cooldowns is just imba.

My build was pretty much the same as yours sofia..except with dagger spec and imp backstab and no aggression. By far the greatest talent for pvp was imp. kick. Stops mages blinking away..stops a druid/shaman getting his insta heal off. Talents i won't wiss - Blade Flurry...bugged talent to begin with, and breaks crowd control also im not sure it works on specials (backstabs at least) In conslusion, its not as gimped in PVP as you'd think. Against Warriors/Rogues/Shamans you're bound to shock them with parries and disarms. ..and Adrenaline rush is an 'I-Win' button in 1v1 situations. But the combat tree works better with a sinister strike build, rather than daggers

35g for the last one :( ..Id like to try a Subtetly build next.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:11 pm

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Sofia
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Nice add luna :thumb:

I gave up my idea of pvp with this build when i vanished from an orc warr - tried to stealth away in *slow motion* - only to be CHARGED when i thought i was at a save distance! ... maybe i should have turned & fought him, but 39ppl in MC waiting only for me to spit on the last rune to carry on, dont think so!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:04 pm

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Shadowthrone
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i TOLD you guys combat>all .. :<<<<<
Black Dragon, Fly high!
Regain your past!
Lost in the fire, the fire of hate!
Black Dragon, fly high!
Spit your red flames
Lost in the fire of damned, the fire of hate!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:36 pm

Scorpius
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Shadowthrone wrote:i TOLD you guys combat>all .. :<<<<<
Double posting is bad m'kay, I've got rid of your other post for you.
No need to thank me honest.... :D
Power Corrupts, Ultimate Power is Fun.

>=)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:27 pm

Gerion
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