Delayed Common Sense

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Change the name or leave it?

Poll ended at Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:29 pm

Yes (change the name)
12
40%
No (don't change the name)
18
60%
 
Total votes: 30

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:38 pm

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Messiah
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BlackDove wrote:All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance ...
Wow, did BD really say that?

Beautiful, man, beautiful.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:41 pm

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You know me.

I'm just a big softie... under all those spikes and whips.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:48 pm

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That may be evidence that you are not entirely evil. We can never delete this thread.
"All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance ...." - BlackDove the Beneficent

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:55 pm

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Messiah wrote:That may be evidence that you are not entirely evil. We can never delete this thread.
Nice sig!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:02 am

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You seem to fall into the same trap as the ones you villify for the split in SSC.

My thoughts do matter as do the thoughts of every other member.

You claim that their are no exiles, that in fact there never really were and even if it did have some relevance, that it doesn't have any now.

Those are your thoughts, your beliefs.

I have stated my thoughts and beliefs as to why we were exiles, and why the word exiles has relevance still.

It seems to me that my THOUGHTS and the THOUGHTS of other members are germane to the topic at hand. You chose the topic in your first post you wanted to start a discussion about changing the name.

Apart from a fatuous comment about the SSX tag being similar to SEX your only other cogent argument was the relevance of the word exiles in our name.

Your last post actually reminds me of many of the discussions I had with those you vilify. They were the ones that used phrase like:

"pick apart the subjective from the objective"

and

"YOUR feelings and YOUR reasons"

Also I really find your tone, language, and manner to be very objectionable.

I thought this was supposed to be a civilized discussion. At no time have I attempted to belittle you, been rude to you, or attempted to be in any way offensive. You however choose to take every argument against your viewpoint as a personal insult and choose to respond in a rude an oafish manner. Then you try to write off others opinions by claiming their thoughts are irrelevant, and that what the name of our group means to any individual is irrelevant.

Whether you like it or not the name of the group does mean something to people, the name of the group is subjective, and it does mean something to each and every one of us. This was the exact same argument that led to the end of the SSC except then your viewpoint was the one used to justify the actions of those that caused the problem.

They justified their actions by saying their view of the ideals wasn't subjective, that the thoughts and feelings that the members had about the ideals were irrelevant. That Risen wrote the ideals and therefore his interpretation was the only one that mattered.

Well I hate to tell you, but they were wrong and you are wrong.

Everyone's thoughts and feelings matter because we operate by consensus. The SSX is an organic entity, it changes, it grows, people attach their own meanings to the words, ideals, and name.
Last edited by Zephir on Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:05 am

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I will moderate this thread if we don't stop rolling down the argument road we seem to be on. I do not want to, but we're not going to start an insult war over this. That goes for both sides.

Drop it. Discuss the various reasons posted civilly, or don't discuss them at all.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:09 am

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@El Oso

The definition of exile does not have anything to do with the reasons for exile.

Exile can be forced or self imposed and it can be for any reason. It is merely the removal from ones home or country.

In this case we are using the word home to represent the gaming community as a whole.

The use of the word exile is in accordance with it's definition. You can indeed exile yourself from your home or country because you disagree with "the norm" in that home. In fact, surely that is one of the primary reasons for self imposed exile.



Zeph
"You're scared of mice and spiders, but oh-so-much greater is your fear that one day the two species will cross-breed to form an all-powerful race of mice-spiders who will immobilize human beings in giant webs in order to steal cheese." - Spaced (1999)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:33 am

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Ok folks, we need to tone it down here before it gets out of hand. It's ok to disagree with each other but it's not ok to ignore peoples opinions outright. So lets keep it civil eh?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:35 pm

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What do people think about Ed's idea?

I think....it's growing on me, and it makes a lot of sense to me from the Arbiter's point of view. If we brand our website/forums as "The Shattered Star Community" it broadens the 'Shattered Star' out for people to interpret and utilise as they see fit.

I do not, however, believe that it means we immediately reclaim the "SSC" tag across the board. My thoughts more go towards it replacing mentions of "SSX" on the website to simply "Shattered Star", and members being allowed to utilise what tags they like , that they feel appropriate to them. I, for example, would remain 'SSX-Anubis' in IRC as for me, as I have said, the name fits and is very meaningful. But MS for example may well change to 'SSC-MS' should he wish to do so, or even 'SSA-MS', etc.

A rigid move from Exiles to another name I am against, and could not back such a proposal due to my personal opinion on the matter. But I feel that such a change towards a broader, freer interpretation of the Shattered Star name would be acceptable to me. The Arbiter half of me thinks this is a good path to take, to make both sides at least moderately happy. The personal side of me is more cautious, but is content so long as the name that I feel represents us well is still open to me.

Someone made a post earlier mentioning the fact that if so many of us are unhappy with the name it may well be time for change, and I agree with that looking at the poll numbers so far. Obviously though, rigid change is not the answer. Perhaps this less finite change is.

Thoughts?
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:56 pm

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I'm not really sure having different names would really be a great move either.

From the basic fact it would be a little confusing to see so many different tags and be sure its actually someone from ssx. Plus it would seem for a community to have such a visible split would surely be much much worse for new players if that's a concern with the name exiles.

But then I have other concerns

For example who would decide what a group in a certain game would be called? While its a minor issue its still obviously going to cause a little confusion and problems. If someone creates a char with SSX tagged on they might not be able to change that when later a group is set-up as SSC.
And when the guild name is set in game everyone else who joins is stuck with it, so who gets to decide that?

And then again a minor issue but another annoyance. IRC channels. If you have #ssx, #ssx-AO, #ssx-WoW, #ssa-CoD etc its just another annoyance.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:10 pm

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[ 11:47:49 ] [ @SSX-MS ] I think it's probably the best move for everyone really, the poll has had quite a good turn out so far (still hoping for more :p) but even 35% would be a lot of people left unhappy should we just leave the subject at whatever result the poll comes to. The only thing i'm not sure about is the tags and individual group names.
[ 11:50:03 ] [ @SSX-MS ] Like take WaW for instance (using that as an example as that's the only MP i'm playing atm and lots of clans play it). That has a clan tag feature so when joining a game you could have an entire party displaying as "[SSX]Rigby85" / "[SSX]Avapos" etc, if we're all using different tags for whatever has meaning to us, it may look a little weird/silly in situations like that.
[ 11:50:52 ] [ @SSX-MS ] Like "[SSC]Rigby85" / "[SSX]Avapos" / ["SSA]Whoever". eg.
[ 11:53:42 ] [ @SSX-MS ] Only other thing i'm not sure about as well is the individual group names as i said, and what i mean by that is i'm not sure how well having names that are completely different would work coming back to our "Hub" as it were. Like i can see "Shattered Star Exiles" continuing to work, "Exiles of the Shattered Star" Shattered Star Society, SS Alliance etc etc, but not sure how well
[ 11:54:51 ] [ @SSX-MS ] names like "Burning Stars" would work, i do actually love that name, but maybe they should all have Shattered Star in them somewhere, think it would just work better when leading back to "the shattered star community".
[ 11:58:30 ] [ @SSX-MS ] Would be best for us to all use the same tag in that situation, represents our clan well and they'll easily remember fighting against entire parties with "[SSX]" or whatever before their names rather than several different ones.
[ 11:59:45 ] [ @SSX-MS ] Cos otherwise unless peopled checked our individual gamertags it wouldn't look like we were the same clan :/
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:32 pm

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Its not like one group would be called Bob and the other would be called Steve ;)

As for who gets to decide? The same people who get to decide what server to live on, where to put the guild house, what design to use for the guild banner and whether to add = or * or ++ to the guild tags in game. The first ones in, so later people get stuck with a number of early choices. I'd say you'd have a base name (which is basically what we have now, SSX) and people can vary along that base to suit their needs (Exiles of the Shattered Star, just Exiles, just shatteredstar or just SSX, just, POSSIBLY with a little more latitude) while maintaining the "brand."

IRC, we'd have a main channel (SSC, SSX, whatever) and then groups would have their own channels just like today, though those are usually short lived and everyone ends up in main.

Dunno, surmountable annoyances I think, if its a direction we go in. If we choose not to as the poll indicates, it probably is worth revisiting in future. I can't help but wonder what the reaction would have been had it been presented differently by someone else. I think there will come a time when we want to have a more broadly defined group. I will say the more I think about it, the more my brain warms to it as a potential.

Lastly, everyone should remember that changes need not be permanent, there are plenty of ways to try something like this on, and even if its a disaster, its not like its made from concrete. Change can be positive, but if its not, it can also be temporary ;)

Time will tell and all that :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:38 pm

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Instead of Exiles, we could be Asylum-Seeking Shattered Star Sectarians (ASSSS or A(SS)). Just kidding. I voted Yea for a name change, but I really am not picky. Shattered Star something-something - Fellowship, Community, Communist Party, Confederation, Xenophobes.

The Shattered Star might work on its own; that way, depending on the kind of game (fantasy RPG, futuristic FPS, etc.) the name can be changed to match the gameplay environment.

Whatev's. I'm late to reply to this topic, so it might be too late to contribute. :)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:48 pm

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Different groups having different guildnames? Not sure about that. In giving examples, Ed mentioned the Burning Stars. That wasn't our whole name, Ed - we were the SSC Burning Stars - BS simply being a squadron within the guild SSC.

Were it similar, I could go for that idea again. The guild wouldn't be split by names, they'd still be the eXiles - they'd have a squadron under the SSX banner just as we did under the SSC banner in FS2 (SSC BS, though ingame we simply wore SSC tags).
My concern is that groups could become divided again. "You're not a Burning Star, so you don't know!" (variation on "you're not there...") springs to mind. We dropped the term "divisions" because it impled a divided clan.
We're not divided. We're more than a collection of individual clans, and I think each group bearing it's own name without the SSX aspect does that an injustice.

Also, what if we decide to go that route and this poll says "keep the name" and a group-member who's group adopts it's own, new, name really wanted to stay SSX? Wouldn't the group be going against the majority?

In some ways the idea of renaming groups seems to be a cop-out of the original situation - the poll's not going in favour of those who want to change the name, so let's keep the name but change the names of the groups in it? Doesn't that essentially equate to "changing the name"?

A group of differently named guilds wouldn't be the SSX (whatever the SSX is called), imo. It'd simply be a hosting webpage for various, divided, guilds - and that's how new membership would probably see it, too. Not as a unified community.

So over the course of this meandering waffle I've decided my opinion: Stay as SSX. Continue with "allowing" groups to field squadrons who sport a squadron name under the SSX flag. Do not rename whole groups, because there lies the path, TO THE DARK SID... err.. the path to a divided community.

Someone said that change is nothing to be afraid of. Neither is staying the same. This feels to me like change for change's sake, carrying it's own baggage along the way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:21 pm

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For the record, I actually voted not to change. Though I think we do need to update the about pages etc, and the idea does seem to have merit the more I think about it. But my reasoning is much like Zephir's original reasoning, I think the meaning has grown and fits. I just happen to be able to see reasons why people might want change, so articulating both sides of an argument is a good way to either solidify my own position or find places where I might be wrong.

Its a compromise when something isn't going your way and you change the proposal. Or rather, when you (well, when I) see two sides intractably arguing and a third party proposes an alternative. Calling it a cop out isn't fair, things don't have to be adversarial OR black and white. There plenty of room for grey.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:33 pm

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I agree with what Zeph said completely, and agree with amending the about page (which is why I've not posted in objection in that thread).

With regard to the cop-out comment, it's because the first thing that leapt to mind when the suggestion came up to rename the groups was the Irish referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon. The people voted against it. The Government said "you weren't meant to say 'no'! Tell you what, let's give it a while during which we can tell you how wrong you are, and then we'll ask you again".

Here we were asked "change the name?", and the voting seems to be against it so far, so the suggestion was made "change the names of the groups?".

To me that's exactly the same question, just asked differently.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:44 pm

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I can see plenty of reasons for change, I just happen to disagree with the reasons originally given, and the subsequent attempts to say that the thoughts and opinions of the members were irrelevant.

To me the thoughts and opinions of the group are the very things that define us as a group. I don't have a blind conviction the we should be called SSX, I have reasons why I think SSX is still an appropriate name.

As I said in an earlier post the SSX is an organic entity and it has grown and changed. I understand BD's argument I just disagree with it, and I stated my reasoning for disagreeing. What was so objectionable wasn't BD's desire to change the name, it was his subsequent attempts to say that our opinions are irrelevant and the manner in which he reacted to those who disagree with him.

Like it or not we are the sum of the thoughts, opinions, and feelings of our members, and that is the fundamental truth that Risen lost sight of when he claimed 'ownership' of the SSC and it's ideals. He and his cohort refused to accept that the SSC and ideals had grown beyond their initial interpretation, and that they should be subject to the groups interpretation of the ideals. The SSX, like the SSC, has grown beyond the events, thoughts, and feelings that led to it's creation. It's like a child that is growing up, and forming it's own opinions independently of it's parents.

For the record, even though I voted against this proposal in it's current form, I am not against a name change in principle. I just reject the specific reasoning that was presented.

For me, and others, the name exiles does have relevance and so long as that is the case a convincing reason will have to be found to change the name, that does not revolve around saying our thoughts/feelings/opinions are irrelevant.

Zeph.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:50 pm

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We should also consider our relations with people outside of SSX, and how they'd recognize us in a new game.
There are many other relationships even with other guilds that have been developed over the years at least in the 2 MMO's I've played in, and I'm pretty sure others have developed relationships outside of SSX with groups that know us by name. The problem with changing going forward is that many of these relationships might never be found again. The games in which they were developed have slowed down and many are no longer playing them. Most guilds are not like SSX, they do not survive past a single game. Also most people end up changing their in-game names for various reasons when going to a new game. With the SSX tag it's a much higher probability to run into these same people again in the next big game and reignite old friendships, something that's highly unlikely if it's changed.

Having different names could be ok but could also complicate matters to some degree. We've had other groups maliciously choose similar games previously in order to impersonate our group. This was actually a big ordeal the US WoW group faced a while back and became such a problem a GM ended up forcing the other group's guild to change it's name. The fact that we were a group with the same name outside of WoW helped us win the GM's favor in that instance. Having different names for different groups could make any group that could face a similar issue in the future have a tougher time obtaining a 3rd party resolution.

Just two things I believe should be kept in mind.

As far as me ignoring others opinions which was mentioned in another post, I don't believe I am. I may not share them, but my posts are only regarding what I personally see or don't see in regards to this particular topic. This entire topic is aimed at getting each others opinions on a name change, and none of us are going to hold the same opionions constantly. We should however as friends be respecting each others opinions regardless of whether we agree or not. If I've come off otherwise through my posts I apologize to those that took it this way, as that was not my intention.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:55 pm

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Wow MS, you actually remembered my old Burning Stars name from FS. :) That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I still have the logo from it. :) I may have BD whip me up a logo ;p

As for the name change thing, the poll states that its a no go for now, but since there are clearly enough people that DO wish for some sort of change, I move that we call it good for now and revisit the idea in a few months time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:31 pm

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I am strongly against the idea of having the groups come up with their own names, for all of the reasons Isi and esd already stated. It seems to me like the first step down a road to the eventual disbandment of the greater community. When everyone has different names in addition to the seperate leadership and slightly different rules that already exist, why would anyone not just go their seperate ways and become a completely autonomous clan in whatever game they are playing?

As for those people who said that they voted no because they don't agree with how the idea was presented, I must say that I do not understand your thought process. BD is BD. If you're not used to it by now, I don't know what anyone can do to help you. That does not and should not have any impact on whether or not the actual proposal would be a good move for us.

I think we should keep this poll open for a bit longer, but as Fen said, if the "stay as SSX" option only wins by such a small margin, then we should definitely revisit the idea of a name change in a few months; perhaps when we vote on the next Arbiter. I remember that I mentioned a name change in passing several years ago, and was shot down by pretty much everyone. It seems to be one of those ideas that grows more popular over time, and that we will likely do at some point in the future, however distant it may be.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:03 am

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Ummmm

I don't think anyone said they voted no because of how the idea was presented. People voted no because they disagree with the reasoning.

They voted against it because they identify in some way with the name as it is, and disagree with the arguments presented for changing the name.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:16 pm

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Just to make my previous point clear, I'm posting again :)

I've always been SSX. I've never been SSC (although I have read/heard/pieced together the story of the split).

In the grand scheme of Life, the Universe and Everything...it doesn't really matter...we'll roll with whatever happens, right? That's what friends/communities do.

On a personal level, a name change would be a BIG deal for me. As I've said, I joined Shattered Star eXiles, and I've proudly taken that as my identity in the 2 games I've played (WoW and Warhammer). I'm not the only member that feels this way, I'm sure.

I know it hasn't been intentional, but I am starting to feel as if my thoughts on this are irrelevant, simply because I wasn't part of the original SSC group...and I'm sure that isn't the case at all.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:13 pm

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No your thoughts are certainly relevant. Please don't ever feel that way. We strive very hard to make sure everyone has a relevant say regardless of their involvement. As long as you are a member you have just as much of a say as anyone else. One of the issues in the past that lead to where we are today is separation from the group as a whole. So please feel free to speak up if you have an opinion.

But what we really are discussing here is the relevance of the name, or lack there of in this case. I think both sides have made some compelling arguments. And for the most part we have kept it rather civil.

To reiterate what I said in a past post:

It looks like the vote has swung in the no direction for now, but as there are enough people that wish for some sort of change we can certainly revisit this again in a few months.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:20 pm

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Lilleth wrote:I know it hasn't been intentional, but I am starting to feel as if my thoughts on this are irrelevant, simply because I wasn't part of the original SSC group...and I'm sure that isn't the case at all.
It's absolutely not the case.

I think this is part of the reasoning behind changing the About page, too... if it's not, it should be.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:33 pm

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esd wrote:
Lilleth wrote:I know it hasn't been intentional, but I am starting to feel as if my thoughts on this are irrelevant, simply because I wasn't part of the original SSC group...and I'm sure that isn't the case at all.
It's absolutely not the case.

I think this is part of the reasoning behind changing the About page, too... if it's not, it should be.
Indeed, that is part of the thought process behind that.

Lilleth, what esd and Fen have said is exactly right. It's certainly not the case that anyone's thoughts on this are irrelevant regardless of who they are. The opinions of all members are equally important here, and always will be.
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"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

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